Visite d’État en Indonésie : première journée à Jakarta.

Merci beaucoup, Monsieur le président de la République. Cher Prabowo SUBIANTO, Mesdames, Messieurs les ministres, Messieurs les ambassadeurs, Mesdames, Messieurs, en vos grades et qualités, je tiens d'abord à vous remercier, Monsieur le président, ainsi que le peuple indonésien, pour votre accueil ici même à Jakarta, dans cette magnifique visite d'État qui a commencé ce matin, et nous aurons l'occasion de nous rendre demain ensemble dans la province de Java, vous l'avez dit, la province de Java Centre, pour partager un repas avec les cadets de l'Académie militaire, un de vos grands projets, et je suis fier de pouvoir voir cette réalisation, et aussi les cadets qui ont appris le français, et rendre hommage aussi à l'exceptionnel patrimoine culturel indonésien à Borobudur.

Visite d'État exceptionnelle, oui, parce que l'Indonésie l'est et impressionne le monde par sa diversité, et comment ne pas l'être dans un pays archipel qui a réussi à unir dans une même communauté de destins plus de 17 000 îles. Et dans le monde que nous partageons, qui est en effet marqué par l'instabilité, les menaces, les appels au repli sur soi, l'identité indonésienne, attachée à la tolérance et à l'ouverture aux autres cultures, ne peut qu'être inspirante. C'est sans doute pour cette raison que nous partageons la même approche des grandes crises internationales, et Monsieur le président y est revenu à l'instant. D'abord et avant tout, je dois dire que nous partageons une même volonté d'indépendance, d'autonomie, nous y reviendrons, et elle irrigue beaucoup de notre relation bilatérale. Mais nous partageons aussi la même vision du droit international, une vision qui ne souffre pas de double standard.

Et c'est pourquoi nous défendons l'un et l'autre une paix durable et robuste en Ukraine, en commençant par un cessez-le-feu immédiat. Et c'est pourquoi nous sommes l'un et l'autre engagés aussi pour mettre un terme au conflit au Proche-Orient et reprendre le chemin de la paix afin de garantir la sécurité pour tous, palestiniens et israéliens. Je me permets de revenir sur ce point, car je sais toute l'émotion suscitée par cette guerre et les questions parfois sur la position de l'Europe et de la France. Et je veux le dire ici, la France ne connaît pas le double standard. C'est pourquoi nous avons condamné les attaques terroristes conduites par le Hamas le 7 octobre 2023, reconnu le droit d'Israël à se défendre.

Mais nous avons aussi, dès le mois d'octobre 2023, demandé à un cessez-le-feu, organisé dès novembre 2023 la première conférence humanitaire pour Gaza, et sans relâche œuvré pour que la paix puisse revenir, l'aide humanitaire s'installer. Et c'est pourquoi nous sommes aussi mobilisés pour retrouver un processus qui pourra nous conduire à deux États, à une reconnaissance mutuelle et à une paix durable. Et c'est exactement la position que vous venez de tenir, monsieur le Président, celle qui consiste à dire qu'aujourd'hui, seule la solution politique permettra de retrouver la paix et la construire dans la durée. Nous organiserons prochainement avec l'Arabie saoudite, une conférence sur Gaza, New York, pour donner un nouvel élan à la reconnaissance d'un État palestinien et à la reconnaissance de l'État d'Israël et son droit à vivre en paix, en sécurité dans cette région. Et je veux remercier le président Prabowo pour les mots extrêmement clairs qu'il vient d'avoir, son engagement et la disponibilité qu'il vient de témoigner. Merci beaucoup.

Au-delà évidemment de ces deux conflits, c'est aussi la même vision que nous portons, et vous l'avez rappelé, pour la stabilité du monde, la défense de nos biens communs, et en particulier les océans. La France aura, vous le savez, dans quelques semaines, à organiser à Nice la Conférence des Nations unies sur les océans. Main dans la main, nous agissons aussi pour bâtir un partenariat de souveraineté.

Nous n'oublions pas que l'Indonésie est un pays qui s'est battu pour son indépendance, qui a aussi, dès 1945, ouvert une voie et, 10 ans plus tard, établi une doctrine et en quelque sorte porté une vision singulière du multilatéralisme, peut-être avant l'heure. Ce combat se poursuit aujourd'hui en construisant ensemble des projets dans tous les secteurs pour renforcer cette autonomie stratégique.

Au fond, je dirais que ce qui nous unit, c'est que nous ne voulons la guerre avec personne, mais nous ne voulons dépendre de personne. C'est pourquoi nous croyons dans le partenariat renforcé entre l'Indonésie et la France, mais aussi entre l'ASEAN et l'Europe.

Pour servir cette vision, ce partenariat de souveraineté, ces équilibres, nous avons consolidé ces dernières années, dans la défense et la sécurité, un lien inédit. Je suis heureux que la lettre d'intention signée aujourd'hui puisse ouvrir une nouvelle perspective avec des commandes nouvelles de Rafale, de Scorpène, de frégates légères, avec aussi des exercices conjoints consolidés, vous avez rappelé l'importance des exercices récents, des formations conjointes, et là aussi, une intimité plus forte entre nos armées, avec ces échanges d'informations dont nous avons décidé le principe à l'instant.

Cette indépendance, cette politique de souveraineté nécessite aussi de renforcer la résilience des chaînes de valeur avec des projets dans de nombreux domaines qui ont été signés aujourd'hui, le secteur des métaux critiques, le développement de capacités énergétiques décarbonées, mais aussi des projets en matière satellitaire, en matière d'agroalimentaire.

Vous le savez, la France est aussi un partenaire important de la transition énergétique de votre pays. Nous avons déjà déployé 450 millions d'euros en prêt sur notre engagement de 500 millions d'euros en appuyant la connectivité électrique dans l'ASEAN. Je suis heureux que nous ayons pu conclure aujourd'hui dans l'énergie solaire et dans l'hydrogène des projets importants. Nous souhaitons aussi continuer en matière de transport pour avancer dans la décarbonation de votre économie.

Je pourrais égrener ainsi de nombreux secteurs. Nous l'avons vu dans la coopération du secteur équin. Dans le satellite, il y a une très grande diversité de partenariats qui sont noués. Je voudrais insister aussi sur le caractère exceptionnel des partenariats culturels que nous avons conclus aujourd'hui et que nous parachèverons demain.

En matière de littérature, en matière de coopération scientifique et muséale, en matière de musique et de cinéma, nous allons conclure de nombreux partenariats qui viennent consacrer la reconnaissance de la vitalité culturelle de votre pays et de notre volonté d'être un partenaire de premier plan pour développer.

Je souhaite aussi que tout ça puisse se traduire par des investissements d'entreprises indonésiennes en France. Nous avons pu en accueillir lors de Choose France et j'aurai l'occasion dans un instant d'échanger avec des investisseurs indonésiens pour avancer dans cette direction.

Cette feuille de route est aussi en train de prendre une dimension régionale. Je l'évoquais dans son principe via l'Association des Nations d’Asie du Sud-Est, l'ASEAN. Je m'entretiendrai cet après-midi avant notre dîner d'Etat avec le secrétaire général de cette organisation. Et projet après projet, nous construisons ce partenariat. De même, l'Union européenne, qui a vocation à renforcer ses liens avec l'ASEAN et l'Indonésie, à ce titre, je veux ici redire, Monsieur le Président, que je soutiens pleinement la conclusion d'un accord de partenariat global entre l'Europe et l'Indonésie.

Je tiens enfin à rendre hommage à l'agenda de justice sociale que vous portez via une mesure très concrète et fondamentale, l'accès à un repas à la cantine scolaire, Nos efforts convergent au niveau international. Nous avions lancé en plein Covid, cette initiative avec le programme alimentaire mondial, et nous allons développer à vos côtés, accompagner cette initiative extrêmement importante. Je suis heureux aussi que nous puissions mettre à votre service notre expertise dans le secteur agroalimentaire pour soutenir votre ambition en la matière.

Malgré la distance, au fond, mon message est simple, Monsieur le président. La France est à vos côtés et nous partageons à de multiples égards une certaine idée de l'ordre du monde.

Cette visite marque à ce titre une nouvelle étape de notre histoire commune, par des partenariats nouveaux, mais aussi par une vision partagée des équilibres dont nous avons besoin. C'est pourquoi, en effet, j'ai souhaité inviter Monsieur le président Prabowo à être présent le 14 juillet, à ce que vos troupes puissent défiler aux côtés des nôtres et à ce qu'en cette année anniversaire de nos relations diplomatiques, vous puissiez être l'invité d'honneur de notre fête nationale. Je vous remercie d'avoir accepté cette invitation.

Merci, en tout cas, pour l'amitié que vous nous portez ; croyez en la nôtre en retour. C'est ce chemin de confiance qui, je l'espère, nous permettra de bâtir, entre nos deux pays, entre nos deux régions, encore davantage de coopération et un chemin possible d'équilibre dans ce monde si incertain.

Merci, Monsieur le président.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you so much for this warm welcome, Thank you mister president and all the representatives of students here,

Ladies and gentlemen

Let me thank you on behalf of my delegation. I am here with members of Parliament, ministers, ambassadors, heads of our research centers and universities. It’s a great pleasure to be here with you, I am not here to deliver a speech, I am here to answer your questions very directly but let me just tell you in a few words why I am here, we are in a state visit in your country at the invitation of President Prabowo, not just because this is the 75th anniversary of our diplomatic relation, but because clearly, in this moment of the world order, the relationship between Indonesia and France is even much more critical than ever in our past. Because we do believe that we can work much more together to preserve stability, peace, prosperity, that we can resist the disorder of this world, that we can work much more together in terms of defense, energy, research, industry, food, and so on. I had to summarize in a nutshell our common view, we don't want to have enemies, but we have to diversify the number of our friends in order not to be dependent on anyone.

In this new order of superpower jeopardizing sometimes the world order and the rules-based order, working together could increase our own independence and autonomous strategy. And this is, I would say, the DNA of our partnership and the work between Indonesia and France, between ASEAN and Europe is a strategic one for me. And it's part of this, what we call the Indopacific strategy of France, which is to say in this part of the world, we don't want to be aligned on China, but we don't want to be confrontational with China. We don't want to be dependent on the U.S. We want to act for our own sovereignty. This is why we want to work much more with Indonesia.

We want to have more students coming to France, we want to have more research program in common, we want to have an increased work together and common programs on defense and security, we want to help your president on his food program, we want to work on the decarbonization of the energy in your country with you, and we want to work as well on culture and do much more on culture creation with your country. I don't want to be longer, but this trip is very important to my delegation and myself because we do believe in the future of your country, and we do believe that we have so many interests in common that make this work so critical.

Prof. Dr. KOMARUDIN

His Excellency, Mr. President of the French Republic, distinguished members of the France delegation, honourable guests, esteemed faculty members, students and friends. I am truly honoured and delighted to welcome His Excellency, Mr. President Emmanuel Macron to our university. This moment of great significance for our Academic community and for Indonesia as a whole. We thank you deeply for taking the time to visit us and for recognizing the vital role of education in building stronger ties between nations.

Your presence here today is not only a symbol of friendship between France and Indonesia, but also a powerful reminder of our shared values, the pursuit of knowledge, the defence of human dignity, and the hope for a better, more resilient world. We believe that through meaningful partnership we can nurture future generations who are not only academically excellent, but also compassionate, responsible and prepared to contribute to humanity. Once again, Mr. President, thank you for honouring us with your visit. Merci beaucoup.

We are inspired by your leadership and we look forward to building a future of shared growth, peace and global solidarity. Merci beaucoup Mr. President. Terima kasih.

Host

Alright, today we are going to have a question-and-answer session, a dialogue directly with Monsieur le President. Students and lecturers who are coming today will have the opportunity to exchange ideas with His Excellency, Emmanuel Macron.

Student

I'm from International Relations Gadjah Mada. Okay, so one of the examples of French independence from all these superpowers that you've mentioned is that France can navigate its way between conflicting interests in the United Nations Security Council. So, as a developing nation, I want to ask you, how can Indonesia, especially as a youth, can follow suit with France's independence in that field? And how can it actually help to address the crisis that is currently going on in Gaza? Je vous remercie.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you for your question. Thank you. As a present for you, your speech, and you're welcome. Two things. First thing is about this independent diplomacy we have, which is indeed a French tradition, if I may say. But when we build this world order after the Second World War, some big countries allow France to be part of the Security Council of the United Nations as a permanent member. We are a nuclear power. And through this status, we were allowed in a certain way to have this independence. And we always preserved this independence vis à vis superpowers. We have our own line.

As for your country, I would say you have your own tradition of independence and the example provided by Indonesia is a very unique one. Through your revolution, you provided and you started as the beginning of the post-colonial era and the independence of a lot of countries in 1945. 10 years later, your country launched as well a non-aligned approach of this world order and took the leadership of this another way to seize a multilateral order where all the countries are respected. This is why I don't compare what is not comparable, but it creates in our history some linkage, some common points. But I would be very humble vis a vis your diplomacy and your country.

You have your own history and your own tradition of independence. And this is why I do believe in the dialogue and the unique dialogue between Indonesia and France. As for Gaza, because you raised the question very genuinely, in a certain way, taking just the example. But let's address, if I may say, the elephant in the room. Because everywhere in our world, young people and not just young people. I'm no more young, unhappily for me. But we are all shocked and traumatized but by what's happening in Gaza and this humanitarian crisis is a disaster. And if you allow me, I will try to tell you what is the French approach to this situation and to try to embrace the whole complexity of the situation in Gaza.

First, we did condemn the terrorist attack of Hamas on the 7th of October, 2023. It was one of the most aggressive terrorist attacks against Israel, and we lost a lot of our compatriots in this terrorist attack. It was the biggest terrorist attack since 2016 for France. We did recognize the right of Israel to protect itself, to defend, and obviously to release all the hostages. Since the 7th of October, 2023, we worked very hard and we do support all the initiatives to release all hostages. Having said that, since October 2023, we asked for a ceasefire. Because if we did share the willingness to demilitarize Hamas and release hostages, we didn't share the approach which was to attack Gaza without any differentiation and attacking as well all the civilians. We asked for a ceasefire in October 2023. We organized the first humanitarian conference for Gaza in November 2023 in Paris. Since this time, we have multiplied humanitarian initiatives with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Emirates, and a lot of countries in order to provide aid, food, to support a lot of people and to try to rescue a maximum number of people. In parallel, we did support all the initiatives to relieve hostages.

Now, the situation is at a critical point. A few weeks ago, I was with president Sissi at the border of Gaza, in El-Arich. I saw with him a lot of people on the Egyptian soil, but coming from Gaza after surgery in an awful situation. I saw all the humanitarian aid being stored in this place without any access to Gaza because of the blockade. This is why our priority today is first, to ask very strongly for a ceasefire. This is an emergency. Second, ask for the access of food, water, drugs, treatments, and all humanitarian access. This is a total emergency. And this is the worst point since the beginning of the conflict. Third, the release of all hostages. Fourth, demilitarization of Hamas and withdrawal of Hamas from any political participation. And fifth, we will work very hard with Saudi Arabia because we have this responsibility given by the United Nations. In June, we will co-organize this conference for a two-states approach. Because we do believe that the outcome of this situation and the only way to fix this situation is not just through a security approach. This is through a political answer in order to provide the right of people to have a state and mutual recognition.

What we will do is that we will trigger a movement of recognition for a Palestinian state under certain conditions: release of hostages, demilitarization of Hamas, no participation of Hamas; but as well the fact that this Palestinian state will recognize the Israeli state and its right to protect itself. And this is the only way. Your president, this morning, made a very important speech saying: « The day Israel recognizes a Palestinian state, I will recognize Israel and its right to exist and protect itself ». The purpose of such an approach of dual and mutual recognition is first to say the end of this crisis is not through war, but a political process. Second, the only way to have peace in the Middle East is through a political process with this mutual recognition and the creation of what I would call an architecture of security, where each member will recognize the existence and the right of the other to protect itself. Obviously, we will add to that the fact that the Palestinian state will not have any army and all the brothers and the brother states and all the neighbours will be in charge of securing it. I don't want to enter into too much technicality, but I can provide that and we will detail it in the weeks to come.

But this recognition is just a signal that we have to stop this war. We have to recognize the right of Palestinian people to have a state and the right for some other countries of the Israeli people to have their state and both of them to live together in peace. My point, and this is a very important one vis-à-vis you, is that you've probably heard a lot about the war in Ukraine and the aggression launched by Russia. We are in total solidarity with Ukraine because we do believe in the right of people to have their state and their territorial integrity.

How can we defend such an approach, if in Gaza, we don't react? So, we don't want a double standard. We do believe in the universality of our rules. This is why we have such a diplomacy and such an approach on Gaza.

Student

In the context of increasing global instability, how does France envision strengthening cooperation with Indopacific countries, particularly Indonesia, to promote regional security and uphold international law?

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you very much. It's clear that we live in a world of instability. We could refer to economic instability and tariffs and so on. But let's focus on your question, which is about geopolitical instability and the potential risk in this part of the world. For a lot of countries like yours, and by the way all the countries of the region, obviously the main risk is to have an increasing presence of China and a sort of overhang of China, especially in your own seas, and a potential threat for your sovereignty.

This is where we launched this Indopacific approach, because there is one way to react to this approach. I do respect all this approach, by the way. I just try to qualify and design a strategy. I'm not judgmental in my qualifications. There is one way which is very confrontational, which is what I would call the US approach. Number one vis-à-vis number two, they want to compete. And number one just doesn't want number two to expand in this region of the world. It's fine. This is probably a right strategic rationale.

But I noticed that for a lot of countries in this region, if they don't want to be more dependent on China, if they don't want to be threatened by China, if they don't want to see their own sovereignty being reduced by China, they are very much linked with China. They have a lot of respect for China. They don't want to enter into confrontation or they don't want to be trapped in this confrontation between the two superpowers. This is where we provide what I call the third way. This Indopacific approach is a way to say, we share the same view, because France, as you know, has overseas territories in the region, with New Caledonia, French Polynesia, Reunion Island, Mayotte. We have as well a lot of bases with more than 8,000 soldiers and a lot of common strategic operations with all the armies of the region.

Our approach is the following. We don't want to be confrontational, but we want to help all the countries of the region. We do share the same view, a view of, I would say, a global order based on respect and balance and equilibrium. We want to work together, we want to cooperate in order to increase your capacity, and by the way, our capacity to be more independent and have better strategic autonomy. We do so through security and defense cooperation. We have RAFALE program for aircraft with your country, but as well with India, with the UAE. We have RAFALE club, we found key countries of this Indo-Pak region. We cooperate on some more in some categories of capabilities for our armies in order to be sure that we are not dependent on these two superpowers. But we develop common capacities to protect our own soil, sometimes to deter others, to jeopardize our sovereignty, and to protect what I would call, quoting a former Australian Prime minister, "the liberty of sovereignty."

We do develop common operations as well, common training programs for our soldiers. Tomorrow, I will be in the Academy Java Center region launched by your president. We want to follow up this approach. We want to do the same in all the key critical areas: research, technology, artificial intelligence, energy, food. The idea for us is to say, the more we work together, the more we reduce our dependencies vis-a-vis the two superpowers. We want to cooperate with them. As for France, we have a special alliance with the United States. We are part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. But we are independent in terms of capacities and for our own defence and security.

We have had a lot of links with China for decades, and we want to follow up. But in a certain way, we do believe that we have to derisk our models from their conflictuality. This is the view of your country and your president. This is the core, the DNA of the Indopacific strategy, not being confrontational, but enhancing our independence on both sides. As I mentioned to you, I think the partnership between France and Indonesia makes a lot of sense in this context. The partnership between ASEAN and the European Union is very meaningful. Because it's more than one billion habitants with a lot of innovations and technologies and a lot of capacities. We do share the same interests and the same view of the global order. Here are the key elements of this Indopacific Strategy.

Student

Permettez-moi de vous poser une question en anglais. What is France doing to solve the war in Ukraine? Merci beaucoup.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you very much for your question. Thank you for studying French. And I mean, you're more than welcome in French universities. And we are very keen on increasing the number of students to study our language, but as well as, I mean, participate in our training programs and come to our universities.

Now I will focus on the question. I mean, the war in Ukraine is about what we discussed since the beginning, about the rights of countries to preserve their territorial integrity. If you start accepting a superpower and a bigger power to jeopardize these international rules, this is the end of a stable world. I explain the rationale of our initiative. Because sometimes, I know that for some countries, it seems completely crazy the level of commitment we have on Ukraine when I read newspapers and comments. But this is critical for the Ukrainians, this is critical for European security, but I think it's very important as well for you here, in this place of the world.

Because if we accept Russia to jeopardize the territorial integrity in Ukraine, what will happen the day China decides to jeopardize your territorial integrity, the Philippines, or whoever? No double standard. We stick to our principle: the right of people to have a sovereign state and preservation of territorial integrity. This is absolutely key. So what happened in 2014? Russia started to invade Crimea, it's a small part of Ukraine, and some other region in Donbass, close to the Azov Sea. They stopped, they froze the war at that time and France and Germany were in charge of the process.

During many years, we tried to monitor a process of complicated ceasefire to be sure that peace could be preserved. In February 2022, right after Covid time, if you remember, the world was a little bit shaky. We were all a little bit destabilized by this period of time. You are part of this generation, which suffered a lot from Covid-19. February 2022, suddenly, President Putin launched big operations toward Ukraine, trying to invade all Ukraine, from the north, from the west. He tried to invade. They resisted heroically. But what he wants to do now is to integrate 5 regions of this country. He's still occupying and fighting on a daily basis and attacking Ukraine and killing civilians on a daily basis with missiles, with drones, and so on.

What we decided to do at the very beginning is, in fact, a position which was to say, we will sanction Russia because it's unacceptable, so we decided some package of sanctions. When I say « we » I speak about the European Union. We decided on a series of sanctions against the Russian economy in order to weaken their capacity to finance this war. Second, we provided a series of packages of support to Ukraine: budget support, economic support, and military support. We provided arms, ammunition, and some capabilities in order to protect themselves.

But we decided not to enter directly in a war to avoid an escalation in a Third World War. I think it was reasonable. Since February 2022, the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian army, I mean, have demonstrated such bravery. They resisted. So many civilians and soldiers were killed, but they killed a lot of Russian soldiers. And they do resist. But we are at a critical moment where we have to stop this war because on a daily basis, you have a lot of losses on both sides and a lot of civilians are killed.

This is why our request today, and we try to do our best to engage the American administration and President Trump a few months ago, took a very strong position in that sense, which was to say we want an unconditional ceasefire on air, sea, and ground operations. We do support this approach. And President Zelensky, even if he's the one who was invaded, accepted this unconditional ceasefire. Now, the problem is that Russia refuses this unconditional ceasefire. So, we push very hard. And what we want to do is to engage the US administration with us to have a deterrent sanction package in order to force the Russians to accept this ceasefire, which will offer a window of opportunity to negotiate a robust peace, meaning a peace where Ukraine and Russia will have to negotiate on perhaps some frozen territories and de facto occupied territories. But it will be their decision on both sides. Where we will have to provide security guarantees, meaning the capacity of an Ukrainian army for the day after to resist vis-à-vis new potential aggressions and some security guarantees provided by the rest of the continent and the rest of the world.

Because now we know from experience that there is no guarantee provided by Russia, because they betrayed their words and their commitment several times. If we just leave Ukraine alone with a so-called peace, they will be invaded in two, three, four years’ time. So here is exactly what we are trying to do. And now the critical point where we are is to convince a maximum number of countries with the Europeans - I hope the Americans and some other - to have this capacity of, I would say, conviction, but in fact deterrence, to bring Russia back at the table and accept this ceasefire to open these negotiations and have this robust peace.

As long as we don't have this robust peace, we will maintain our support to the Ukrainians. But the responsibility taken by Russia is enormous. It's very important for you in this part of the world to have that in the back of your mind as well. Because I try to be consistent when I speak about the Indopacific, when I speak about Gaza, when I speak about Ukraine. I have the same approach. But sometimes when you hear the Russian authorities speaking about Gaza or speaking about your region, it seems that they want to give music to you here. And let's be clear, this is not what they do, where they live, which is always very suspicious. I don't believe in the double standard as well.

Today, Russia is a power of destabilization of this world. This is a big problem, because it's blocking everything, because they are permanent members of the Security Council. So here is our diplomacy and our efforts, together with the other European leaders. We work very actively with the British Prime Minister, the German Chancellor, to engage this Coalition of the Willings, and as well to engage with the U.S. to get these results and have peace.

Student

Good afternoon. First of all, it's an honour, Mr. President, sir. My name is Natanya Kristanti-Kara Bigel. I am an English literature major from Universitas Negeri Jakarta. If I may, how is France's view on Indonesia becoming a member of BRICS? Thank you.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you. It seems that you have some supporters in this room. Look, as a friend of Indonesia, I'm happy Indonesia joins BRICS. And at the same time, as I mentioned to your president, I think it's good that he wants to join the OECD. I don't compare BRICS and OECD, but as well, OECD is a way to encore Indonesia in common methodology and work all together to cooperate in this world. I think this is great because it's a recognition of the importance and the economic and geopolitical relevance of your country. Now, the big question for all the leaders of the BRICS country is, what do you want to do? I would say that the jury is still out. So let me tell what I would love to see. Because I'm not lecturing anybody, but I do believe that such cooperation between so big emerging countries makes a lot of sense.

If the BRICS is something which wants to be a sort of alternative world order, following the Chinese strategy and being in opposition with a world order supposed to be led by the U.S., I think it would be a mistake, and we will go towards a confrontation. As I know, a lot of this country, from Brazil to your country and so on, I think you are much more sophisticated, and this is not what you want. If having the BRICS is just a message to the rest of the world, guys, wake up! The current organizations, I mean, they just don't make sense. They don't represent the current order. This is true. This is true. I did promote myself, and I do promote myself, this capacity to revisit and reform the institutions of the world order. Because look at the situation.

If you take the UN Security Council, France is a permanent member. But do we think that having these 5 countries we have today, with France, UK, US, China and Russia, it represents the world as it is today? No. You have a lot of big countries around the table and big regions missing around the table as permanent members. If you take the World Bank and the IMF to just take financial institutions. Do we think that the key members and the shareholders do represent the world order from a growth perspective, from a people's perspective? No.

Because a lot of the emerging and very important countries today in this world didn't exist when we created these institutions. This is a big problem, and we never refreshed the representation. We never revisited this representation. So, I see the BRICS’s country as a way to organize cooperation between big emerging countries, having the feeling, and not just the feeling, being underrepresented in the global order, and sending a message that the others have to, I would say, take care of this necessity of a better recognition and a better representation and more cooperation.

This is why I hope, and I will do my best not to have a confrontation, I would say. G7 against BRICS doesn't make sense. A world order being led by the US against a world order being led by China doesn't make sense. But I do advocate for an in-depth reform of our world order from the UN to World Bank, IMF and other institutions. And this is what we launched in July 2023 in Paris with your country and some others, because we have 70 countries joining what we called the People Pact for Prosperity and Planet. This pact is a way to reconcile North and South, to have a common conversation, I would say, and to design some common action and cooperation in order to deal with fight against inequalities and fight against climate change, because we don't want this dilemma. We have to do both.

In order to preserve the sovereignty of all the different countries and to maximize the capacity of public and private financing to accelerate development policies and climate change approach. I do believe that such a cooperation is absolutely critical. And this is why I'm very happy to see Indonesia joining the BRICS, because I do believe that your country will help to make the BRICS an area of cooperation and permanent discussion between South and North, an area of equilibrium in order to build a new joint action. Next year, France will have the responsibility to chair the G7, and I will do my best to have this common work with the BRICS country and to launch a new platform together in order to organize this reframing of our global order and provide concrete actions for this change. Thank you.

Student

Je suis étudiante à cette université. Je voudrais vous poser une question sur la liberté d'expression en France. La France, depuis longtemps, se glorifie sur la liberté et l’égalité. Cependant, il y a beaucoup de femmes musulmanes françaises, voilées, bien éduquées, qualifiées, qui se sentent ostracisées et marginalisées devant le public français en raison de la façon dont la laïcité joue dans le public. Comment l'État français peut-il concilier les restrictions avec ses valeurs d'inclusion sociale et de... C'est tout. Merci.

Emmanuel MACRON

Merci infiniment pour non seulement étudier le français, mais de parler un français parfait.

I'm supposed to answer your question in a perfect French in a bad English? I'm sorry for that. Look, I think the question you raised is a very important one, because let's be lucid. This is probably a question you have looking very carefully at our country, but this is a question which does exist in my country itself. I want to address it very sincerely.

First, let me say that French women, students, workers, and so on, are totally allowed to have a veil and to practice their religion, and this is totally authorized. Let's be clear. And today, if you go in a French university, you can be dressed like you are today here. No misunderstanding. Veil is forbidden at school under 18 and in public services. Why? Because in school, we don't want to have any religious signs.

It's not just for Islam. It's for all religions. Because we educate future citizens, so they come, I would say, in a certain way, nude from any religion and in public services, we have the neutrality. So there is no religious science. Here is the law. Now, you referred much more to the public debate.

I can understand what you say, and I will try to say what the French laïcité is, and the one I advocate. As a President of the French Republic, I'm not here to say: “you are welcome, you are not welcome, I have a problem with your religion and so on”. I totally separate the religion from being a civilian and being a citizen.

The French laïcité, which could be translated in a sort of secularism, but it's an imperfect translation. This is just the fact that you are allowed to believe in any God. You can be Christian, you can be Muslim, you can be Buddhist, or you are allowed not to believe in any God, but it doesn't care regarding your place in the society.

What is not allowed is that on behalf of your religion not to respect the rule of the Republic. This is where sometimes we had in the French debate, this ambiguity and the feeling you mention, because it shows that some groups using your religion try to explain some people, let's not respect the rule of the French Republic. We will educate differently the young girls and the women, we will not follow the rule of the Republic. For these people, we did refuse this approach because this is not part of the French laïcité.

This is not against any religion. This is just to say it's part of your private beliefs. As a citizen, you are not allowed to disrespect our laws. Beyond here, I speak as the President of the French Republic, I speak about the law and what our laïcité is. But this is true that in a lot of countries where Islam is not the original religion, there is, let's say, some tensions. It does exist. It is our work all together to fix it with respect. This is a very delicate question, because in the French tradition, as you know, we have caricatures who have blasphemes. It's part of the liberty of speech. It's not well-understood by some religions and some people. We have to understand each other much better and explain and put these bridges.

Second, the French people were several times attacked by terrorists, which did it on behalf of the religion. You know much better than me, because your country was as well and did suffer from this terrorist attack. There is nothing to deal with your religion in reality, but you can understand that it created some ambiguities, some fears, some concerns for people when this religion was not well known.

We are in a moment where we have to fix the situation. And it will require a lot of common understanding, a lot of respect. But let me recap my answer to you.

First, in France, all the religions are welcome, but all people believing in any God are requested to be citizen, full stop, and respect all the laws of the French Republic. It will never be authorized to have, let's say, an exception on behalf of a religion.

Second, it's true that sometimes in the public debate there is stigmatization. It's true, at the same time, perhaps you have Jewish people here, but we have a lot of antisemitic attacks as well. You have to be aware of that, because of these tensions. We have to do our work in our society, but in all societies, to encourage respect for everybody, to have a common debate, but to respect every citizen with his religion as long as his religion is compatible with the rule of the country.

Third, it's very important to follow up the common understanding here to understand that our French laïcité is nothing to deal with just Islam, but is a common framework to live all together as citizens and the French people and the French authorities to understand the difference between some radical peoples and some groups who want to use your religion, for some of them, for terrorist reasons, but for some others just for political reasons. They don't represent the whole Islam world.

That's very different from the rest of the population who want to believe in one God, but live, I would say, in quiet conditions in our countries. I'm confident about that. But it shows that on a daily basis we will have tensions because it's how to deal with diversity.

I want, as a final point, I want you to understand that we have something in common between Indonesia and France. We have to deal with an incredible diversity. You are a much bigger country, you have 17,000 islands, it's not the case for France, but we had to deal with a very complicated story and a lot of diversity. I do believe that the French model is a respectful one and is a very powerful one because it's based on what we called universalism.

This approach is just to say “I see each of you as a human person” with this dignity you mention of the human person. In the French DNA, there is no distinction of race, religion and condition. It's part of our Constitution. It's one of the outcomes of the French revolution. This is the foundation of this French laicité. Respect, because each of us are citizens and part of the same nation, the same republic. All those who try to use this approach, to divert it, in order to use this mention and this philosophy as a denial or a rejection of a religion, they just betray what the French laicité is and what is our Constitution. I want to reassure you about that.

Student

Thank you, Sir. Good afternoon, Mister President. As you have mentioned, we need to fight climate change because it is a major issue for this generation and generations to come. How will France and Indonesia work together regarding the transition to renewable energy? Especially through making climate finance and funds more accessible for developing countries like Indonesia. Thank you.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you very much. And thank you for raising such an important question. Climate change is a fight of all generations. I mean, we start the job, but you will have to follow it up. I hope to finish it.

We know that our target should be carbon neutrality in 2050. And it's a very, it's really a challenge. The situation between our two countries, I mean, are very different. My electricity is produced at 75% by nuclear energy, so it's almost decarbonized, have a lot of renewables. But because we had several transitions in our past history, and I think one of the misunderstanding between north and south when we spoke about climate change was in fact this dilemma that some created, which was to say, okay, you in the north, you were the one to pollute the world like crazy during generations, you developed yourself,  and now that you are developed and suddenly you wake up and you say, you guys in the south, please don't pollute and good luck with your development, by the way.

It doesn't fly. It doesn't fly, and it's unacceptable for a lot of leaders, they say we want to develop our economies. And sometimes, your economies are very dependent on CO2 and for your country, for instance, on coal. The key question is how to help you to fix the situation, having together economic growth and going towards carbon neutrality. This is the key question.

This is where the richer country has to help the emerging and the developing countries. There is a path forward. Let's be clear. This is what we launched together with your country, with what we call the JETP, Just Energy Transition Program. It's a program and this is exactly the philosophy of this People Pact for People and the Planet.

Indonesia wants to create, growth, jobs, but is lucid about the fact that the growth model is very dependent, and too much dependent on coal. And coal, let's be clear, is the worst source of electricity in terms of CO2 emission, the worst one.

So how to create jobs, have growth without polluting? This is exactly a transition, and we want to be part of this transition by providing financing. We started to do so, but we are far from the target, let's be honest. We have to mobilize much more, the World Bank, the IMF and the big countries with us. We have to do much more ourselves to accompany your country and through innovations, a new source of energy. And for a country like yours, what is the solution?

First, to create much more capacities on renewables. This morning, we signed with the president, huge capacity with a French company on solar panels. This is a very good way to produce electricity based on renewables. We are as well open to work on a civilian nuclear program, which is a very good way to provide low-carbon pilotable energy. We are very keen to work on all the innovation plus obviously electricity reduction and capacity to have a much sober development model.

This is exactly the path forward, and what we want to work on with your country. The solution is, as I mentioned, to be sure that we mobilize the maximum number of financing. What we will do in the months to come, we will follow up our own support, but we will do our best. Japan and Germany are making a great job as well, accompanying your country. We will mobilize other countries and the global financial institutions in order to deploy much more financing to our company Indonesia. We will deploy these new capacities providing low carbon electricity.

In parallel, your country will have to make some transition. They will create value themselves, but they are hard to monitor. I speak with a lot of respect because it's more easy in my country and sometimes it remains very tough. But you will have to completely recalibrate your urban development. Because if you want to reduce the CO2 emission, you have to reform your transport system. In your capital, I think, you have one metro line. I mean, the more you have low carbon transport system, the more you can reduce the CO2 emission. It's part of the transition, you have to create in order to reduce it and create development and reducing the CO2 emission.

It's a reform of mobility, agriculture and a reform of the way to produce. This is what we are doing, this is where we want to accompany your country. But it will require a lot of financing, but as well a lot of reorganization of the process. Our advice, and it's part of the JETP, is to rethink by design, I would say, the next step, and not just to correct and try to compensate the CO2 which is emitted by a country like yours.

The final point is obviously that part of the process, you will have to finance and organize the conversion of your coal plants. Everywhere in the countries you have coal plants, you have a lot of people, they put a lot of capital there, but you have a lot of jobs in these coal plants. If you want to succeed in your transition, you have to convince all these people that they have a future. If you just say: « I have good news for you, it will be good for climate, but I will kill your jobs » No chance to deliver. Part of this JETP and the program we want to launch is to precisely accompany this conversion and allow this plant to become, gas station, renewable station, because gas is part of the transition energy, but renewable is much better again and precisely to provide alternative solution with less CO2 emission. Here's the solution. This is a journey, it will not be fixed in a few months.

But if you take at the scale of the planet, some key countries, like India, Indonesia, obviously China, if we manage to accelerate what we call the coal peak, meaning the peak where these countries will use coal to produce their electricity. If you manage to reduce the magnitude of this peak and to try to make it as soon as we can, it’s the key element for the battle for CO2 emission. It's much more efficient than all the other type of actions we are doing. This is in this region that a lot of our actions are at stake. If we manage to reduce coal, if we manage to convert much more rapidly, if we manage to deploy more renewables, and nuclear in China, Indonesia, India and let's say, Vietnam, few others, but these ones are the key, it will be a big success.

We have to accompany and provide economic opportunities at the same time. Here's the challenge. I do hope that based on our cooperation, but engaging with us a lot of other partners, we will deliver.

Student

Bonjour Monsieur le Président. En fait, j’ai déjà été accepté dans 5 universités françaises et j’ai l’intention de poursuivre mes études là-bas. Ma question est : pourriez-vous nous expliquer ce qu’est la Francophonie, et pourquoi il est utile pour les étudiants indonésiens d’apprendre le français. Merci.

Emmanuel MACRON

Merci beaucoup, vous aussi pour votre français. Merci beaucoup, vous aussi de poser cette question en français et le faire parfaitement. Et félicitations d’être déjà acceptée dans une université française.

Now I have the challenge to explain Francophonie in English, but we will do our best. Look, let me try to make it. Francophonie, it's a strange word for probably a lot of people who don't speak French, because we don't speak about the language, but a sort of a political project.

You have to understand that Francophonie is a political project. This is not just a language, because the French language, and it's quite close to your history by the way, because Francophonie is part of the post-colonial era. Francophonie was not created by French president. It was not a creation to be, I would say, in hegemony and to try to have some influence and soft power on the rest of the world. Not at all. It was created by some presidents and kings of former colonies, but after their independence, and especially Cambodia, Senegal and some others.

They decided to create Francophonie because in fact they claimed very bluntly and it was totally true: this language is not just the language of France, this is ours in Cambodia, in Vietnam, in Senegal, in Ivory Coast. You have of dozens of countries joining Francophonie. We inherited this language because of wars, because of colonization, sometimes by choice. But this is our language and not just the belonging of the French.

Francophonie is by nature a project which is not centered in France. If I'm honest with you, if I take today, if I look at just the population and the number of people speaking French, the epicenter of Francophonie is not Paris, not at all. This is probably Kinshasa, on the Congo river, in the middle of Africa. This is where you have the most number of people speaking French language. Just for you to understand, Francophonie is not a project which is designed by French people and francocentric. This is a universal project by nature.

Second, the French language, and this is something probably familiar with you, given the number of languages you have in Indonesia, and it's so impressive. Francophonie is not a language, the French language in Francophonie is not a hegemonic one and is as well by nature always in relation with other languages.

In Africa, with a lot of idiomatic tongues and a lot of vernacular languages. And in all the different regions, people speak French and another language. This is always multilingual approach and not an approach where we say, sometimes as other language. If you understand me properly, it could happen. Some say if you learn my language, this is a universal one, you can forget the others. This is not the case for the French language. This is a language like a bridge, always in correlation with others and based on respect. I think it goes well with the philosophy of Indonesia.

Third, I do believe that learning French language today makes a lot of sense for students like you because of the opportunities it creates. I could tell you, because this is an open door to wonderful philosophers from Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, so many others. This is an open door to our poets, Rimbaud, who loves your country, and so many great novelists and artists. But this is as well a unique language for opportunities. Because by 2050 it will be the second of the third most spoken language of the world.

Why? Because of the demographic dynamic of a lot of countries in the Francophonie. If you take the dynamic of Democratic Republic of Congo, if you take the dynamic of Senegal, Ivory coast, but as well a lot of French-speaking communities in your region, from Cambodia to Vietnam and so on. The demographic dynamic is very important. Obviously, I can speak about Latam as well and so on. By 2050 it will be probably number three.

It means if you want to trade, to exchange in your region, in Pacific, in Africa, in Europe, speaking French is an opening door and it will provide you a lot of opportunities. On top of English, on top of Indonesian, on so many languages. This is why I do believe that it's a relevant advice. I'm probably a little bit biased, I recognize, but it's a good advice for you to join Francophonie and to understand the philosophy, but to learn French language, to practice French language, because it will create a number of opportunities for young people like you are and unique opportunities in so many regions of the world. Thank you.

Student

Good afternoon, Mr. President. You said that we already have 75 years of peaceful cooperation between Indonesia and France. Now I'm wondering, where do you see economic cooperation going forward? And especially considering that we both have a very rich art scene. Are there specific strategies for France to fortify the creative industries from both countries? Thank you.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you. Thank you so much. Yes, I think we have to deepen, diversify our partnership. And this is the core of this state visit. I think we increased during the past few years our cooperation in terms of defence and security, we are increasing our cooperation in terms of industry, we are increasing our cooperation in terms of agriculture and food and we can do much more. It's part of the strategy of your president and this is a very relevant strategy: deploying much more school meals and investing in that is right and producing much more ongoing to self-sufficiency in terms of food. We can be part of it and we signed some critical agreements this morning.

 We can work much more on critical minerals. We are part, by the way, through our companies, of your strategy, but we can do much more to develop downstream activities. We want and we are working much more on energy and renewable energies, as I mentioned. Obviously, I should mention as well innovation and artificial intelligence and digital activities.

But you're perfectly right to mention creative industries. Why? Because as well, it's part of our identities, both of us. Tomorrow we will celebrate this new relationship and the ambition we have for creative industries. We are launching common initiatives on literature to promote your literature in French and our French novelists and artists in your language. We have some common translation, common initiative and so on.

Second, to have more cooperation between our museum, so culture Heritage, museums and so on, and third cinema, movies. What we want to launch is in a certain way a Franco-Indonesian « nouvelle vague ». And you know that we have a unique model of cinema, and we have a very special financing system. But much more than that, we have wonderful artists, writers, actors, moviemakers and so on, producers as well.

This ecosystem is very vivid and has always been preserved and remain independent from the big US productions or all the others. This is exactly what you want to do. There is a potential of growth, but not just growth, but opportunities, creations. For me, it's very important because it creates jobs, it creates better understanding. Through art and cinema, it's reverting to our discussion. This is the best way to understand each other and respect each other and having much more contact and bridges. But this is the best way as well to share our dreams in a certain way and not to be forced just to follow our dream in Chinese or in American.

We want to dream in our language, we want to have our own cinema, we want to develop our own imagination. And we want our young people precisely to be able to, to write and create their own series, their own novels. This is exactly what we want to do and deploy through our partnership. It's a very important new pillar. This is a very unique one as well. We started something like that with India and Bollywood a few years ago. We identified in Indonesia something unique and especially the same taste for art, the same taste for diversity, and the same willingness to create without borders and with the same appetite and the same energy.

This is why I do believe that our artists can work together much more. So tomorrow we will celebrate this new partnership in all these different fields and create a new creative industries’ partnership between Indonesia and France. Thank you.

Emmanuel MACRON

Thank you very much. I want, before we take the photo, to thank all of you for now, for the incredible welcome, for your attention, for the variety and the quality of the questions. Be sure that French people love your country and are fascinated by your country.

We want to do much more with Indonesia. I invite all the students, teachers and researchers. We want to do more with France. You are more than welcome. You are invited to come to our country. We want to develop new exchange programs. Please come to France. Join us. You are more than welcome. Thank you.